What's the best number for a group on the CR?

[Jon C C on a Bianchi]

Ok here's an interesting question we discussed last night.

What do you think?



For what it's worth IMO there are five factors at work :

1. The group needs to be able to communicate effectively - front to back. Don't want people falling off the back unnoticed.

2. The group needs to be safe. Too big a group increases the chance of crashes - think peloton tdf - think communication.

3. The group needs to be able to be passed safely by traffic. Too big a group and we become difficult to pass - we don't want to piss off too many car drivers.

4. The group needs to work together with everyone doing their bit. There needs to be a bit of control.Too big a group and this can fall apart.

5. Most importantly the best groups become a UNIT, a TEAM, develop a spirit, a camaraderie - it helps if they get to know each other. if the group's too big it just doesn't work.

So IMO 8 to 10 with 12 the max.

13 will have to be split 6 & 7, 14 = 7 & 7, 15 = 8 & 7 etc etc

[Andrew G]

Your numbers sound about right Jon although perhaps have a max of 10 in the more inexperienced groups? Could help with communication of road craft and bike skills with a lower number.

One of the things I like on CRs is a chance to see and speak to a variety of people. Is there a way of encouraging a bit of mixing it up a bit between say which 18 group you go in without it becoming silly or draconian? Just a bit of mingling.

[Paul H]

I hope we dont go over the top here and have loads of rules because of one minor incident which isnt really the clubs fault.

I wouldnt want to see restrictions made on the TG.

IMO, I would not like a cap on riders joining the TG, you dont have to take your turn at the front if you are not strong enough and if you get dropped its not the end of the world and wait for the next group.

All riders should be self sufficient in case they do get dropped from a any group.

[George]

[quote="Paul H"]I hope we dont go over the top here and have loads of rules because of one minor incident which isnt really the clubs fault.

I wouldnt want to see restrictions made on the TG.

IMO, I would not like a cap on riders joining the TG, you dont have to take your turn at the front if you are not strong enough and if you get dropped its not the end of the world and wait for the next group.

All riders should be self sufficient in case they do get dropped from a any group.

[John the old'un]

[quote="marco"]
Whatever we choose to do with this information remember one thing - it currently goes out the window unfortunately once riders leave Charlwood cafe - its like for a lot of people we give them half a clubrun and half a burnup back to croydon. That does not always equate to what a proper cycling club's clubrun should be like.

[Andrew G]

The reason I mentioned the group size numbers I did was linked in to groups going the same route, particularly at the start until you get through to quieter roads, is that as a motorist I myself wouldn't be overly happy to keep coming up and having to pass larger groups in quick succession. To me personally it's not so much a reaction to the odd one off such as happened last week, but more about the club and a lot of cyclists on the road as the same time "living as one" with other road users.

Not wishing to divert the thread's original question but it is linked to my comment above, perhaps one option is to alternate which way groups go when they leave CSS. One group goes as they do currently, the next group goes via Chipstead Valley and then down Pebble Hill and cuts through Betchworth, and then the group departures continue to alternate. This would split things up a bit more to appease other road users but both routes join at Parkgate/Newdigate and could continue to the cafe.

[John the old'un]

[quote="marco"]Yep John 15s and J4F are still well looked after on the way back as they should be, no worries there!

[Dan_K]

Numbers wise, I think 8-10 is best.
My biggest issue with the club run is that just because riders may be fit enough to go with the faster groups, doesn't mean they have the relevent group riding skills to cope with riding in a group at a faster speed.
I think every new rider should do 4+ rides with the 15's before being allowed to step up to the faster groups, just to learn the basics and get used to riding in a group. You may arrive at the cafe 15 minutes later but what's the big deal?

I know it's a bit off topic and we're quite fortunate that accidents don't happen often but I noticed that the last club run I went on, the lack of calling was a real hazard and that's what put me off from coming back the following week.
The 17 group was actually more like 19/20 to the point that people were dropped at Rusper.
I think that next time I do come out on a Saturday, it will be more to go with Pete's group.

I enquired some time ago about becoming a VC and it was pretty much shot down so now I tend to do my own thing.
I've spent the last 3 Sundays leading rides for a group of beginners to show them some local loops and try and pass on a bit of my passion for the sport.

I remember my first club run and Marky Mark looking after me and Steph as we were struggling. He made sure we both got to the cafe and then he dragged me back to Coulsdon. It's efforts like that for a beginner that make all the difference.

Maybe group size isn't the issue here? Maybe it's more about injecting some passion back into the beginner level of the club and enforcing some strict schooling about group progression so that as riders progress through the fundamentals of group riding improve with the speed.

Apologies for straying from the theme.

[Roy Green]

Maybe not directly on the topic either, but I'd make one important point. Each and every member of a group, beginner or experienced, must be entirely responsible for his/her safety, roadcraft etc As one instance, when front runners in a group cross an intersection, or make a turn, etc. It is common for them to shout if the road is clear, or otherwise, for followers. That must never be taken as a complete OK: followers have to make their own observation and act accordingly. Same applies to big holes in the road, parked cars, oncoming/overtaking vehicles. Never rely implicitly on a warning, though useful, being given. In these days, dependency and the blame game is all too common. In other words, don't point fingers at the VC or group leader. It's your ride!

[Snoop Doug]

[quote="Dan_K"]I enquired some time ago about becoming a VC and it was pretty much shot down so now I tend to do my own thing.

[Dan_K]

[quote="marco"]You've got some good points there Dan.

Crikey you aren't the first person who this has happened to. I can't think of many voluntary organisations who would turn down willing volunteers offering their time to help out with something they feel confident in doing and , in the cases of the people who have confided in my about this, leaving them feeling somewhat alienated. It's a crazy way to carry on and I'm not sure what would be driving that decision making process.
Not sure who you spoke to Dan but as far as I know it isn't down to one person to decide - its an official position within the club and therefore subject to the AGM or Committee vote.

Which kind of leads on to another point - seeing as there's been a lot of input coming about the clubruns are the VCs meetings minuted for club records? If they're official club business then they certainly should be to ensure they don't get hijacked by any one person's agenda and so the rest of the committee at least can see what is happening behind the scenes to our flagship event.

[Phil H]

Dan: I think everyone can give something back on every club run by looking out for themselves and for others in the group. Someone struggling behind you? Give a shout up to the front. Is everyone really on at the junction? Maybe take the occasional ride with a slower group if they have lots of new people and help out (confession: I've never done this but could).

Saying that, I've done very few normal club runs recently. Might do one this weekend (cos I want to get the family to the CTC thing in the afternoon).

[Jon C C on a Bianchi]

[quote="Paul H"]I hope we dont go over the top here and have loads of rules because of one minor incident which isnt really the clubs fault.

I wouldnt want to see restrictions made on the TG.

[Jon C C on a Bianchi]

[quote="marco"]

I'd be happy in a 15s or 16s group of 15-20 riders as long as there are at least two people who know what they are doing regarding encouraging new club riders - one at the front , one at the back to make sure they get round safely. At this level the riders tend to be more spaced apart anyway as they don't fully understand slipstreaming yet.

[Andrew G]

Training Group should still have parameters for maximum group size. It's not just about the style of ride or experience of riders, it's also about consideration for other road users.