Marco's LBP test results

[Robh]

For Marco, I hooked up my Powertap wheel and my spare wire harness bit of pain but worth it to get the full test done with watts to see the performance and recovery line.

[img]http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/sbc205/Image2.jpg[/img]

Looking at the green line which is the recovery one there's a 50 watts drop in power @ HR 125. That's a lot and would indicate he's not good a recovering when pushed over his balance point. Meaning he's not developed his STF fibres to help clear lactate which means lots of riding @ LBP-20. Most peope I've tested so far are around 20-30watts.

[img]http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/sbc205/Image1.jpg[/img]

[Michelle]

Interesting the difference between Marco's LBP and Paul T's even though Paul was very tired - ie 10 bpm.

And Rob C had an even bigger difference - 20 bpm

Rob, if Marco - or anyone for that matter - got, say, 25% fitter what would his LBP be?
Or am I getting the wrong end of the stick entirely?

And no I don't know what I mean by 25% fitter, you are more able to hazard a guess than I.

And what does the HI glycolysis and HI phosphagen mean?

Questions, question...

[Robh]

[quote="Sean Hogan - 何祥"]I can reveal exclusive to the forum that I'm booked for a session soon too.

[Robh]

As I'm new to FaCT testing I've been posting my test results on the FaCT forum to help me gain more experience.

Here's Marco's results being discussed...

http://www.fact-canada.com/discus/messa ... 1220598771

[Robh]

Regarding Marco, Paul & Roc C more than llikley have a better STF fiber system which usually has more mitochondria and may re-cycle lactate as an energy source much better than FTF fibers.

25% don't know....Because the body is very indivual who knows, this is what the test is about seeing what training works and what doesn't and trying to spot weakness...The Level III course not out yet incorporates a VO2 machines which is portable and gets even more precise at looking at your body...E.g :-

a) caloric summary
b) gas exchange information
c) pulmonary information

With training LBP can move up and down, training above LBP pushes it to the right but too much can push it back down. Your looking at increasing power @ LBP and trying to increase the cut off point between STF/FFA. So goal is to bring your SFT zone as close as possible to LBP so you preserve glucose (glycogen stores).

Grabbed this following text from FaCT forum as an insight :-

1. LBP at the beginning relatively high 175 - 180. Once we started to train them with the LBP idea of structural trainng and STF stimmulation as a possible reaction we had a "drop " of LBP down to 145 - 150 , but with the same or better wattage as by 175.

[Robh]

Training with work intervals in the High G and rest in the FTF can be used to improve the density and size of the liver, resulting in improved glycogen stores, and ability to work longer in these zones.

The final transition (Hi G to Hi P) is indicated by reaching the max capacity of the pulmo stat. Time is extremely limited in this zone, as the demand for oxygen becomes much higher than the ability to deliver it, and lower priority muscles and organs will be rapidly shut down, 1st resulting in lack of co-ordination, and ending in an unplanned nap!

[Toks]

Are you able to give your clients training recommendations based on the tested results. If so could you break things down. Eg from a FACT perspective how would Marco's training differ from someone like Pauls who is a more competitive rider?

[Robh]

[quote="Toks"]Are you able to give your clients training recommendations based on the tested results. If so could you break things down. Eg from a FACT perspective how would Marco's training differ from someone like Pauls who is a more competitive rider?

[Robh]

I didn't get guidance on how to coach when I did the course just shown how to do the 2 tests. So I'm learning myself as I will be try silly things like, diaphragm breathing on and off the bike, nose only breathing, high cadences, respiratory training on and off the bike, IHT etc...

My path to FaCT is covered here in this detailed post :- http://www.fact-canada.com/discus/messa ... 1220387025. Talks about previous power training for the last 7 years and how I'm starting to use the FaCT ideas.

With Paul once he's fresh and rested he needs to be tested again but for now his LBP is 145 as his body is tired from the 12hr. So should be riding between 101-111bpm for his STF range. I would love to see his ownzone values whilst he rides every day to see how his cardio system is recovering...

Marco, well he told me if he rides 4hrs @ Hr 140 2 days in a row he's dead and can't recover....Clearly he's riding above his balance point which is 135bpm so he running on glucose than FFA as he primary fuel source so depleting his glycogen stores and having nothing left in the tank no doubt, so told him to ride bewteen 96-120bpm for his SFT range and he will be using FFA as fuel.

Rob C he followed a power program from Hunter Allen saw no improvemnts, so told him to ride in his STF sone as no doubt was riding above LBP with the power program so probably bit fatigue and performance line is down...

Remember training makes you worse, reovery makes you better.

Rob

[Robh]

[quote="Michelle"]Interesting the difference between Marco's LBP and Paul T's even though Paul was very tired - ie 10 bpm.

And Rob C had an even bigger difference - 20 bpm

Questions, question...

[huw williams]

[quote="Toks"]Are you able to give your clients training recommendations based on the tested results. If so could you break things down. Eg from a FACT perspective how would Marco's training differ from someone like Pauls who is a more competitive rider?

[Robh]

I was fowarded this on email from my FaCT instructor :-

We believe the ULL again reveals a change in what the body is capable of maintaining with some form of appropriate coordination. So we use this point to help differentiate between FTFb and "maximal" efforts. In training, it is very difficult to use the HR as a guide at this level, as it will take too long to get the HR elevated, and the person will already start to feel "fatigue". So we tend to do work over a period of time at a set wattage or perceived intensity...like the 30 second sprints I had you doing in Mallorca. If you measure the power output during these short steps, you can see whether you are able to increase the output over time, and see if your "max" efforts are actually benefitting you. When you go back to the lab, you can see whether there has been any change in your ULL, which is probably very easily influenced by nutrition, rest, fuel stores etc., on any given day, but does give you some indication of what is happening to performance at the top end.

Along those lines...a World Champion at XTERRA who once asked for our input into her training program, decided that we suggested far too much rest for her to continue her winning ways. She recently finished 8th in a US Champ race (her worst finish in 6 years!). Her thoughts on the race were that she could not possibly be overtrained, as she was able to reach HR of 195...but was just going very slow...in fact walking up the hills, with HR still 195! So, I am glad we are not coaching her...as we fundamentally disagree with her conclusions. The incredibly high HR with very poor performance, is EXACTLY an indication of overtraining. Her heart is fatigued, and unable to push as much blood per beat (decreased force of contraction, resulting in decreased cardiac output), so it beats faster and faster with no better supply of oxygen and nutrients to the working muscles. If you look at her ULL, it will be dramatically depressed at the moment I believe. This is what we tried to convince her last year...come to a camp and learn for yourself how to measure your performance, rather than waiting for the race to blow up in your face, and then make wrong assumptions based on what your watch said. She never did come to J.Tree...maybe next year, after she has lost a few more races. She races again next week-end, and comes over to Europe the week after that...watch for her in Wales...if she keeps training, she will keep getting worse...if she finally takes some rest, she MIGHT recover in time to race well (I have my doubts...I think she is completely tanked at present).

[Robh]

This is text is from the old FaCT forum and might give a clue to Michelle about LBP changes :-

My situation:

I began using lactate tester in winter 2002 for cycling. Intially, my LBP was around 150. Through training in winter/spring 2002, my LBP increased to 155 to 160.

In winter 2003, I did much training around with HR 150-160 (didn't do a lactate test since I didn't think my LBP would have changed). In March 2003, I did a lactate test and found my LBP was around 140-145. After that I did some training at HR in the 140-150 range. In April and May, I did many races, hard training with HR far above my LBP (e.g. 10-20 minute efforts at HR 175-190). I also tried to do some training in the 140-145 range.

This week, did another lactate test and LBP is still 140-145.

I don't plan to do much more racing this summer but I would like to figure out how to raise my LBP.

A couple of questions.

1) How much does the LBP vary during the year?

2) Is training slightly above the LBP detrimental, i.e. will it not raise the LBP at all?

3) In working with your athletes, are all/most of them able to raise their LBP through proper training? Is there a lot of variation in their level of improvement.

Thanks for any comments.

Jim




Juerg's responses :-

Hey together , thank you first for comming forward to open this interesting discussion. I would like to give some input from my point of view, please take it apart and we can learn more.
Introduction :As Jim and Jack's number show the HR on the LBP , we only get a small information about the whole picture. LBP by 160 HR does not mean Jim that you were in better shape as now with LBP 145. It would be interested to see the actual performance on this HR. But we will come back to this later.
Basic ideas of our tests FACT is not to see how good an athlet is , but make an assesment on as many information we can gather. The updated version of FACT will give even more.
We split training in 2 main areas:
1. Functional training
2. Structural training
What Jim did in the winter 2003 was from my point mainly functional training.
Def: Functional training intensities stimmulate systems to work functionally more efficient. Ex:
Your VO2 max in running is 65 and in rowing 46.
You can not use in rowing your already existing VO2. Now you start to row and you will see an improvement of the VO2 number, not because you improve VO2 , but you functionally learn to use this better , from what you already have.
Is this progress ? Yes , will it stay ? perhaps
Can you build up on this : more likely no.
There is so much you can use % wise what you already have and than that's it.
Def: Structural training : You stimulate your system , so you build more structure and you are on a higher performance level with still only using the same % of what you have : Ex: Blutvessels ( Capillarisation ) or mitochondria density , or bone density, Heart volume (HMV up )
Is this progress? it looks like, Will ist stay ?
Yes or no , depending on the trainng to maintain it , but more likly than after functional training. Can you build up on this ? I hope and think that's the only way .
Now to the test :
The first part of FACT will give you a physical information : HR/ performance.( controle of your progess performance wise , but can not be used to get the definition of your training intensity.
The second part will give you a physiological info : how do you produce the energy needed in this intensity , based on HR or performance.(Trainning zones )
The tird part will give you an info of recovery. HR versus peformance versus LAC.
The numbers you see on Jack's questions are info about the physiological part.They will help you to find the right intensity , depending on the stimmulation you like to get on a particular day. ( Will see later )
Now to question Nr. 1 of Jim.
Question back : How many times do you feel up to a personal best ?
LBP may change quit a bit during the year , depending on the time and the training you do. a ) Training close or over the LBP will initially move it to the right. (functional training.
But too many trainings in this intensity will suddenly produce a drop of LBP to the left.
We tested athlets before a race as a warm up. Raced by LBP + 10 for 2 h and did a follow up test after the race :
Result : Athlet 1 : LBP 160 before
Racehr. 175 (bad race )
LBP 140 after.
Bloodsugar okay . Lac. okay .
Ath 2. LBP 175 before
Racehr . 175 - 180 good race
LBP 170 after .
Bloodsugar just okay , lac. low. )
Day after : Athlet 1 Ammonia 185
Athlet 2 Ammonia 90.
We for sur over the next few month will have more info about this.
Summary: If you train LBP -20 - 30 and once in a while (20 %) LBP and LBP + we do not see a change in LBP values but in performance.
Ex: Marathon runner tested over the last 7 years : LBP variation of + - 5 .
Mountainbiker tested over the last 6 years ( 20 - 30 tests a year ) LBP change of + - 5.
Performance change more than 150 watt on LBP .
Short to 2 : Yes you may have to train above LBP : question is the timing and the stimmulation you plan. Yes it will raise the LBP but mainly first as a funtional respond . Therefor limited time in this new higher level. To 3 : Yes over the time of 4 - 8 years it moves slowly up :

Ath 1 from above : started 140 LBP now 6 years later 160 - 165
Ath 2 135 now 170.
Structural change over 4 - 6 years but now stable.
Will go further into your question in the next days. Thanks again an please take the answer as a suggestion and a base to discuss.




First thank you Steve for coming up with a clear answer to Jack and Jim.I personally always hesitate to do this , because I do not understand the reactions and the time frame different training stresses create.
Now this took same pressure of me to come up with an answere.
So I like to go back with some possible explanations on Jims and Jacks measurements.
Summary : Jim did LBP test 2002. 150 HR 230 - 240 Watt.
Followed by a wintertraining , but we do not know the intensity he trained in this winter.
New LBP test after this winter was 155 - 160 LBP ? what wattage ?
Followed by a lot of training arround and even far above LBP ? ( Go to Jeff B. respond )
LBP dropped to 140 - 145 and also watt dropped.
Try and error ? Training like this did not worked.
Possible explanation : I take now the risk to give an answere which creates even more questions.
Remember functional and structural training.
LBP is a value where we just can start to prove , that Lactate shows up in the system.
For Lacate to show up means , that metabolicly the energy was produced with Glucose, and with some , but not enough oxygen in the working muscle.Lactate in the system during work would therefor suggest , that the working muscle had some kind of trouble to come up with enough Oxygen. ( Can have different reasons )
Conclusion. If you go close to the LBP you may already or for sure produce Lacate in the working muscle, so you work anaerobic , but under controle. Once Lacate moves into the system , you may be under severe pressure in this working muscle to sustain the energyproduction with oxygen. Now it will be an interpretation wheter this is still full aerobic work or not.
In the Jeff B respond. we could see that in Fibres like TYP I and TYP II an intensities arround 70 - 80 % of VO2 max was a clear functional respond on muscle enzym adaptation ( Cytochrom c ) and in intensities 65 % a clear structural respond on mitochondria numbers .
Now more practically . Training on or around LBP + -
is a functional traininig ( for meatbolic sytems , but a structural training fo the vascular system ). You will improve very fast the metabolic system , but slow the other . It is harder top build than to clean ).
( Enzyme activity ),. You will see an increase in LBP. and in performance for a while : for perhaps
6 - 8 weeks followed by a drop in performance and often together with a drop in LBP numbers.
Now training a lot above LBP plus add. some races to it like Jim , you have to ask , where is the fundation of all of this.
Possible answere.For beginners the average rule Jack had in his statment would still be okay : Once you respond functionally, you have to start to adjust individually the training zones and the training duration.
Problem with training on LBP : This is an intensity , you use for sure glucose . Top endurance athlets use up to 70 - 90 % FFA in endurance training compared with beginners or people with only FTF II a fibres .( Which may use 50 % FFA and 50 % glucose by the same intensity.
The reason of the adaptation in endurance athlets going better on FFA is very complicated but an easy explanation is , : save glucose as long as possible ( brain )
Now training on LBP and going even faster improved the above enzymes , but not the ability ( mitochondria number ) to change your fuel tank.
In fact work by Hoppeler , Pette ,Mader a.s. o.
show a possible mitochondria protein destruction with this high intensities base on different possibilities. :

1: thermic / heat destroyes protein, and as harder you go as more heat you create.
2. Half value time of mitochondria protein . (averg 18 - 24 days ( Hoppeler ).
Now traininig with 85 % of VO2 max , which will be very close to a good developed LBP. ( our athets have their LBP after 6 years now by 78 - 83 % of theoretical VO2 max. ) and this over 21/2 h which is a very commen length of a traininig would increase dramatically the katabolic speed of the mitochondria protein to 0.65 days. . which would mean practically. You do not recover over night enough and destruction ( katabolisme ) is faster than ( anabolisme. ) improvement.
That means a training on LBP +- can not be done every day even tough it is only over 1 hour.
3. You burn glucoes on LBP training. The refuelling of an empty liver is app. 5 % in an hour under optimal situations. You may not be able to refuel and your next training may start with a half tank only. Now same intensity . ( Even harder if you take power as a quide for intensity . you soon will have a glucose deficit.
Now very short and we may later come on this part.
Drop in bloodsugar / emergency for your brain, help from a hormon called cortisol. ( katabolic hormon ) or bad brother from testosteron / Insulin )
Cortisol will help to change protein into glucose to regain bloodsugar level. with the questions , how intelligent it is to do just that , usig buildung blocks to run your truck. Could it be that ammonia or uric acid testing may give some answers to this questions ? we may one day get more info with more question.
4. The possible destruction of tissue due to high H+ Ions in the cell.
Solution to Jim. For the moment Take a test . now 80 - 90 % of all your traininig hours. ( take a 10 h block will be LBP - 20 - 30 ) for the next 4 - 8 weeks . Retest in 4 weeks . ) 10 - 20 % including your race hours will be LBP and above depending on the duration . As shorter the race as more above. Races arround 2 h LBP + 5 or the same for training. . Day after such a training is rest . Rest means rest. on the bike . Go for a very easy walk or swim or upper body strength.
Answer to Jack s interesting result in the running part : I do not now the actual performance improvement by this test. The one test with Lac. 13 on the max and 190 HR would indicate for me , that this was a functional respond on that very day produced by exeptonal situation like very hot plus dehydrated athlet. In this cases the LBP, resp Lactate , resp performance ( Watt ) ventilation frequenzy have to be observe. The result would be good for training on this day but as you did , make a retest and you could see he was back to base LBP values.
To the intensity : Question is . Do you like to improve capillarisation or mitochondria density or mitochondroa enzym activity . Depending of where you see the lowest values. resp. the best improvement possibilities at that particular time of the season , thats where I would focus on, even tough it is middle of the race season and you see in a test a fast drop of the values which indicate mitochondria volume. It does not help anything if you have a good enzyme activity to go very hard over 1 - 2 min if your race is 2 h. and your LBP droppes to far.
Now let's give a brack and think about all of the above . Good luck Juerg