Slyvain Garde's LBP test 30-09-08

[Robh]

Some info from Juerg on the LBP test :-

Starting with a 3 min step test to produce your performance line with aiming to find LLL and ULL and perhaps the trend of the line with a positive or negative deflection , which will give you some ideas , whether the athlet is on his "coordination / muscular " limitation , or on his "cardio " limitation.

This performance line will give you the feedback , whether the training you did over a certain amount of time , is changing your performance and possibly your zones (STF /or FTF or high intensity changes ).

Now at the end of this first part you take as usual a lactate sample and that's where we start the second part of FaCT. So we do not take lactate on the way up , out of all the now often discussed reasons.

We actually produce a problem for the body and now in the second part like to see , by which HR we can solve, reduce ,the problem, and when does it starts again. ( searching for LBP )

Now after your first reading you drop down to 30-40 beats or to HR @ percieved effort of 4 on the first part of the test.

Once you reach the target HR you stay for 2 - 3 min there and take a second lactate, stay for 1 more minute ( till result ) and depending on the result you choose the next target HR )

- If there is a clear drop like in top athletes from 7 down to 3 , you may go up immediatly by 10 beats. Now you take a sample after 21/2 minute , but keep the athleteon the same HR and wait for the result. If there is a change more than 1 mmol/L you go up again, if there is less of a change you take a second reading after another 2 - 3 min , , wait for result and decide the next step. This way you have a "dynamic " in the same step and see the trend in this step.
Now you keep these system going till end of the test.

On the software you will see therefor some completely vertical lines , which really help you to see the trend and will give you much more info on each athlete.
You as well have a better info on the green line ( the recovery line ) to see possible changes in this area of your athlete.
On a field test : Yes you go LBP + - 5 and check every about 8 - 10 min and see the trend during this training to verify the actual LBP situation. Remember you like to "overload a spec. system , but you not like to "over push".
Stress is not always overload , but stimulating differently . (See Stress research by Hans Selye )

More " biochemically "looked at.

At the start of the test you are on a relative low intensity. In these phase your glycolytic flux is low and you may use mainly FFA as your substrate for energy production. These will take place mainly in the muscles under the name "mitochondrial respiration ".
With each step we increase intensity and therefor the blood flow, as well as the glucose uptake into your skeletal muscles will increase.. Together with this the free calcium as well as the Pi ( inorganic phosphate ) will increase slightly as well., and this will stimulate the activity of phosphorylase.. Now the increase of glucose uptake together with an increase of glycogenolysis will again increase the glycolytic flux and as a result this will decrease the relative contribution of FFA oxidation to the total ATP regeneration.

Now here is , where we may be able to see the change in RR and O2 sat during the first part of the test, which will help us therefor to find the individual STF zone or start of the FTF a zone .

Now as wee keep increasing the intensity we may still be in a "steady state " , but may have as the main energy source glucose. Now in this stage we will have an increase of H+ production , but thanks to "lactate " we will see a take over off H+ in the steps - pyruvate - lactate , and this lactate will be transported as long as possible into the mitochondria for oxidative phosphorylation. So we actually have already a lactate production , and a stimulation for lactate transportation and H+ "buffering " , but all still takes place in the working muscle, and is not yet "out of control" . If we now over reach this situation , meaning the exercise intensity increases up to a level, where we exceed this balance (LBP reached ) we come to the point where the cytosolic ATP demand can't be handled anymore by mitochondrial respiration. Here now we will see a transient increase in ADP , which causes an increase rate of CK reaction. The Pi will start to accumulate and providing therefor added substrate for glycogenolysis and glycolysis and increasing the glycolytic flux even more. These events lead to a very rapid increase in proton (H+) release. Consequently the main cause of an increase of proton release is the increasing rate of glycolytic flux as well as the now increasing dependence on glycolytic turnover.

Now as Sahlin et all (1987 ) pointed out these situation - glycolytic flux up - decreased cytosolic redox (NAD+/NADH) results in an increased rate of lactate production. Now this production of lactate is beneficial for the regeneration of NAD+ as well as a "buffer" of H+.
Now if this is going "out of control" we have the help of the so called "lactate-transporter (MCT ) which are as well co-transporters of protons.
Together with this transporter we have as well Na+ and HCO3- as additional transporters.
That's where we are above LBP , but possibly still below ULL and that's the reason , why we can sustain speeds above LBP for a certain amount of time. Now the level of lactate we finaly can measure in the blood is therefor depending on a lot of additional situations in the individual athlets body . -A few points :

Muscle fiber type
- capillarisation to other body parts , which are slightly involved in the work , but still can work with mitochondrial respiration.
- HCO3 - situation , which possibly could be improved by certain type of Spiro Tiger training.
-RR ability to exhale CO2 in a much bigger volume , due to better respiratory muscle situation.
and for sure some more points.
Now if you but these above practical info together with the theoretical points , you may come somewhat closer to our idea of testing.
We use testing mainly to control progess , but much more to set the "zones " depending on each athletes individual responds to the training , respective to his recovery.

Summary >
A " zone 1 " for us is not always a zone 1 and may change due to a previous stimmulation ( hard training / race and so on)
That's exactly why we believe a"calculated " training zoning is not working, and as one guy "asked on an other forum:
Calculated zone is better than nothing , I would have to argue , no , feeling is much better than a calculated zone.

[Paul H]

Hi Rob,

Ive got some question which I wouldnt mind an answer to - you may have already covered these in your posts so apologies if you have:

Could you explain why Sylvs lactate level at LBP is very low - probably at a resting level for some people?

Are the athletes allowed to eat before or during the testing?

Do you make any account for the ratio of Fast Twitch and Slow Twitch fibres the athletes have or their age when calculating zones relative to lactate? (Fast Twitchers and older people tend to produce more lactate)

What is the "oxygen dependent system"

What are the actual physical benefits of training at LBP? ie is it increase in mitochondria, heart size etc

On average, how quickly would LBP change

Cheers

Paul

[Michelle]

Ok brain full now. Glycolytic ...what the flux is that?

Rob - question...

When you are in your STF zone, you are using mainly fats in order to produce your energy.

When you start moving above that STF zone, do you still use fats to produce energy, but start to use more gylcogen? Or is there a cut off point, and at that point the energy production suddenly swings from fats to other glucogen?

Another question...or two...

Is there a minimum length of time that one should be training at ones STF training zone....would it be ok to do 30 minutes or 45 minutes at a time or do you have to train for, say, one hour minimum.

Also, what if I wanted to do 2-3 hours in a day, but because of work had to break it up into three x one hour stints. Would that all still count? Or does it all have to be done together.

[Sylv]

Had a go at riding LBP -20 on the clubrun today - it was good. Started on my own and averaged 128 to the caf. It felt a bit like gliding, spinning a smooth gear with the Ipod set on random and near no wind. Flat could maintain 18-20mph, climbs had to lower to around 13-14 sometimes (HR up to 140-145) and descents you can pretty much go as hard as you can. Back short way with a big group, sometimes was doing under 100 drafting, got just over 150 couple times only. Down to 120 overall average, but including 5 min stop at the church.

Only downside - I don't feel like I've done anything afterwards!

[Michelle]

I bet you have done something, Sylv, I bet you made a few teeny tiny mitochondria....

[Robh]

[quote="Sylv"]Had a go at riding LBP -20 on the clubrun today - it was good. Started on my own and averaged 128 to the caf. It felt a bit like gliding, spinning a smooth gear with the Ipod set on random and near no wind. Flat could maintain 18-20mph, climbs had to lower to around 13-14 sometimes (HR up to 140-145) and descents you can pretty much go as hard as you can. Back short way with a big group, sometimes was doing under 100 drafting, got just over 150 couple times only. Down to 120 overall average, but including 5 min stop at the church.

Only downside - I don't feel like I've done anything afterwards!

[quote="Robh"][quote="Sylv"]120 avg? Your 20 beats off from your upper zone of your Bi-STF zone (114-140)....you slacker Sylv no wonder you found it easy!

[Robh]

[quote="Paul H"]Hi Rob,

Ive got some question which I wouldnt mind an answer to - you may have already covered these in your posts so apologies if you have:

Could you explain why Sylvs lactate level at LBP is very low - probably at a resting level for some people?

Are the athletes allowed to eat before or during the testing?

Do you make any account for the ratio of Fast Twitch and Slow Twitch fibres the athletes have or their age when calculating zones relative to lactate? (Fast Twitchers and older people tend to produce more lactate)

What is the "oxygen dependent system"

What are the actual physical benefits of training at LBP? ie is it increase in mitochondria, heart size etc

On average, how quickly would LBP change

Cheers

Paul

[Robh]

[quote="Michelle"]Ok brain full now. Glycolytic ...what the flux is that?

Rob - question...

When you are in your STF zone, you are using mainly fats in order to produce your energy.

When you start moving above that STF zone, do you still use fats to produce energy, but start to use more gylcogen? Or is there a cut off point, and at that point the energy production suddenly swings from fats to other glucogen?

Another question...or two...

Is there a minimum length of time that one should be training at ones STF training zone....would it be ok to do 30 minutes or 45 minutes at a time or do you have to train for, say, one hour minimum.

Also, what if I wanted to do 2-3 hours in a day, but because of work had to break it up into three x one hour stints. Would that all still count? Or does it all have to be done together.

I thought it would be healthy for the training forum for somebody else to pitch in their opinions.

If the LBP can change so much depending on what you have eaten, how can you use this as a training intensity guide?

[quote]Ride in this zone for long term structural development .The response to this sort of training is slow takes years and years to build a new structure i.e mitochondria , blood vessels, bone density , tendon density , liver size, neurological connections and so on. This is structural training and slow twitch fibres are used.

[Robh]

LBP as defined FaCT protocol doesnt get affected by diet, FaCT looks at trends not absolute numbers in their tests. I've had one person already having a resting lactate of 3.4mmol. The standard lactate tested designed by Mader says your anaerobic @ 4mmol.

Standard lactate v LBP test :-
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6688

Thanks for the article and I know how Juerg and Andrew will comment on it. How do you know 80 to 84 per cent of max heart rate is the same for everyone? How do you know you achieved your true max HR?

12 week study, Juerg Feldmann @ FaCT has been studying Ryder Hesjesdal now of slipstream for over ten years , he was his coach when he was junior and knows what works and doesn't. No university wants to spend money on a 5 year study you won't seen gains for slow intensity riding in a 12 week study.

The theory I was shown by Andrew @ FaCT the more mitochondria you have the better your able to clear lactate and have a better recovery line on the FaCT test. Now We have Slyv who's a training group member and rides hard on his commutes so probably at 80 to 84 per cent of max heart rate as you say but has a 50W drop in performance. I've posted a graph of an Elite X-terra who spends 90% of his time below LBP for the last 18months and has a very good recovery line admittedly also using a Spirotiger. His LBP was 150 and he's been 90% of hid riding @ LBP-10 (140bpm).

[Robh]

[quote="Paul H"]I thought it would be healthy for the training forum for somebody else to pitch in their opinions.

The best way to increase mitochondria is by training at 80-85% HR (ACC Club Training Group pace) [url]http://www.
pponline.co.uk/encyc/0129.htm[/url]

[Will]

Sylv - You should calm down and ride in the 15s for the rest of the year

[Robh]

As quoted by Juerg :- One of the most impressive people , where the slower works better showed an incredible change was Mark Allen (Ironman champion). This for me is a typical example of our FaCT IRIS situation . He just trained too fast and too hard and one of the delivery systems ( The FFA oxygen dependent delivery group ) was not good trained, and he never had the ability at the end to keep up with D. Scott. Once they included this system into the workout he was able to give the other system Glucose oxygen dependent delivery a less heavy workload and they had some efficiency left at the end of the race.

[Robh]

Mark Allen on Heart Rate Training
from Mark Allen
Website: http://www.markallenonline.com/Default.asp?partner=dua on January 7, 2002
View comments about this article!


Working Your Heart
The secret of training smart

How hard do I have to workout? How far do I have to go? I workout 2 hours every other day of the week and I still can't lose those last 10 pounds. Why do I keep getting injured when I try to run? These are all questions and comments people make about their training that seems to have no simple solution.

I want to give you that solution. It's called a heart rate monitor. Whether your goal is to win a race or just live a long healthy life, using a heart rate monitor is the single most valuable tool you can have in your training arsenal of equipment. And using one in the way I am going to describe will not only help you shed those last few pounds, but will enable you to do it without either killing yourself in training or starving yourself at the dinner table.

I came from a swimming background, which in the 70's and 80's when I competed was a sport that lived by the No Pain, No Gain motto. My coach would give us workouts that were designed to push us to our limit every single day. I would go home dead, sleep as much as I could, then come back the next day for another round of punishing interval sets.

It was all I knew. So when I entered the sport of triathlons in the early 1980's, my mentality was to go as hard as I could at some point in every single workout. And to gauge how fast that might have to be, I looked at how fast the best triathletes were running at the end of the short distance races. Guys like Dave Scott, Scott Tinley and Scott Molina were able to hold close to 5 minute miles for their 10ks after swimming and biking!

So that's what I did. Every run, even the slow ones, for at least one mile, I would try to get close to 5 minute pace. And it worked...sort of. I had some good races the first year or two, but I also suffered from minor injuries and was always feeling one run away from being too burned out to want to continue with my training.

Then came the heart rate monitor. A man named Phil Maffetone, who had done a lot of research with the monitors, contacted me. Phil said that I was doing too much anaerobic training, too much speed work, too many high end/high heart rate sessions. I was forcing my body into a chemistry that only burns carbohydrates for fuel by elevating my heart rate so high each time I went out and ran.

So he told me to go to the track, strap on the heart rate monitor, and keep my heart rate below 155 beats per minute. Maffetone told me below this number that my body would be able to take in enough oxygen to burn fat as the main source of fuel for my muscle to move. I was going to develop my aerobic/fat burning system. What I discovered was a shock.

To keep my heart rate below 155 beats/minute, I had to slow my pace down to an 8:15 mile. That's three minutes/mile SLOWER than I had been trying to hit in every single workout I did! My body just couldn't utilize fat for fuel.

So for the next four months I did exclusively aerobic training keeping my heart rate at or below my maximum aerobic heart rate, using the monitor every single workout. And at the end of that period, my pace at the same heart rate of 155 beats/minute had improved by over a minute. And after nearly a year of doing mostly aerobic training, which by the way was much more comfortable and less taxing than the anaerobic style that I was used to, my pace at 155 beats/minute had improved to a blistering 5:20 mile.

That means that I was now able to burn fat for fuel efficiently enough to hold a pace that a year before was redlining my effort at a maximum heart rate of about 190. I had become an aerobic machine! On top of the speed benefit at lower heart rates, I was no longer feeling like I was ready for an injury the next run I went on, and I was feeling fresh after my workouts instead of being totally exhausted from them.

So let's figure out what heart rate will give you this kind of benefit and improvement. There is a formula that will determine your Maximum Aerobic Heart Rate, which is the maximum heart rate you can go and still burn fat as the main source of energy in your muscles. It is the heart rate that will enable you to recover day to day from your training. It's the maximum heart rate that will help you burn those last few pounds of fat. It is the heart that will build the size of your internal engine so that you have more power to give when you do want to maximize your heart rate in a race situation.

Here is the formula:

Take 180
Subtract your age
Now we need to adjust this number based on your current level of fitness. Make the following correction as it applies to you:
# If you do no working out subtract another 10 beats
# If you workout 1-2 times a week subtract 5 beats
# If you workout 3-4 times a week leave the number as it is.
# If you workout 5 or more times as week and have done so for a year or more, then add an additional 5 beats to that number.

If you are about 60 years old or older OR if you are about 20 years old or younger, add an additional 5 beats to the corrected number you now have.

You now have your maximum aerobic heart rate, which again is the maximum heart rate that you can workout at and still burn mostly fat for fuel. Now go out and do ALL of your cardiovascular training at or below this heart rate and see how your pace improves. After just a few weeks you should start to see a dramatic improvement in the speed you can go at these lower heart rates.

Over time, however, you will get the maximum benefit possible from doing just aerobic training. At that point, after several months of seeing you pace get faster at your maximum aerobic heart rate, you will begin to slow down. This is the sign that if you want to continue to improve on your speed, it is time to go back to the high end interval anaerobic training one or two days/week. So you will have to go back to the NO Pain, NO Gain credo once again. But this time, your body will be able to handle it. Keep at the intervals and you will see your pace improve once again for a period. But just like the aerobic training, there is a limit to the benefit you will receive from anaerobic/carbohydrate training. At that point, you will see your speed start to slow down again. And that is the signal that it is time to switch back to a strict diet of aerobic/fat burning training.

Keep your interval sessions to around15-30 minutes of hard high heart rate effort total. This means that if you are going to the track to do intervals do about 5k worth of speed during the entire workout. Less than that and the physiological effect is not as great. More than that and you just can't maintain a high enough effort during the workout to maximize our benefit. You want to push your interval making each one a higher level of intensity and effort than the previous one. If you reach a point where you cannot maintain your form any longer, back off the effort or even call it a day. That is all your body has to give.

This is what I did to keep improving for nearly 15 years as a triathlete. It is also the training the Lance Armstrong's coach put him on to recover from his cancer treatment when they saw that he could not handle the high end training anymore. And although it was contrary to what most cyclists do to prepare for the grueling Tour de France, it was what enabled him to capture the title there for the first time in 1999.

Best of luck!

Mark Allen
6 Time Ironman World Champion
Mark Allen coaching services are available at http://www.markallenonline.com