Long term results - LBP training

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Re: Long term results - LBP training

Postby Robh » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:34 pm

[quote="Paul H"][quote]Juerg has talked about Conconi on the forum but we did not discuss it on the course. So I don't have any knowledge on it Paul.


When you know your AT you can use this to workout the intensity of endurance rides and Joe Friel who you mentioned recommends 20-30 beats below your AT. i.e. My AT is 170 so my endurance rides are done at a HR of 140-150. Joe Friel also says intensity rides below this level are for recovery only with no fitness benefits.



So under this intensity no stress?

None at all? Not even on the cardio system?

Are you sure?

Can you quantitfy it?

I know I can...Will let you think first and you can post a reply then I will reply with the answer.

Good luck!

God fun learning new ideas!
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Re: Long term results - LBP training

Postby Paul H » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:04 pm

[quote]So under this intensity no stress on the cardio system? Are you sure?


Your using your cardio system but not stressing it and a well trained athlete will not see any performance benefits from this

[quote]You should have given your training group members this adivce ages ago to slow them down a bit


Its way off what you are advising.

[quote] because I have just tested another one and guess what? Another big drop in watts after the first sample was taken...

What's going on?

Please explain?


Oh no not another big drop in watts. Who is this useless rider?

Perhaps you could explain in your own words without using copy and paste.

Have you tested anybody who hasnt had a large drop in wattage?

Have you found a stronger athlete in any of the other ACC groups? If not why?

[quote]The FacT athletes don't have such a BIG drop


Perhaps they cant push themselves as hard.

If Sylv and Keith have such rubbish aerobic systems how did Sylv manage to do such a good 12hr TT (on a road bike and did he beat you?) and Keith so well in the Marmotte? Whats going on please explain?
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Re: Long term results - LBP training

Postby Robh » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:24 pm

How do you know? Because you believe in percentages? I don't use percentages if I can find the trend I'm looking for in resp rate and Spo2 for the cross over point for STF/FTF.

I've already explained Paul in my own words look at Slyv's thread...Read my thread and learn why give you the answer on plate your a clever guy...I had to learn myself the hard way too.

Yes Paul T.

People who get tested are explained why they recover poor.

Rubbish? Eh? Hope you would say that to his face? I would never say that very disrespectful and not very Aggreeable.

Have you found a stronger athlete in any of the other ACC groups? If not why? Well I thought I did but you refused the test over a month ago.

These athletes can push Paul nice try but wrong conclusion...

Sylv and Keith have room for improvement. Of course they have a aerobic system just can be better Paul...

Why did they do well? Perhaps they have better survival technique...

Was wondering when you would go down that route of I can beat you. Sooner than I expected you let me down.
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Re: Long term results - LBP training

Postby Robh » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:34 pm

Paul I'm not coaching any of these riders so if they improve or not it has nothing to do with me as I just test and give the results to athlete and coach.
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Re: Long term results - LBP training

Postby Robh » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:28 am

When I get a chance to ask Mike from Canada if going over 420 watts (hit 400watts on ramp test) is pushing him he may have a slightly different take on it to you Paul.

You can do quite well in long endurance races (12 hour TT) and still demonstrate a weakness in your recovery system when pused over your LBP during a test. I would like to remind you the comment about recovery lines was to help identify weaknesses (not how rubbish they are as you would state), that can be corrected with training...it's not to start an argument about who is better trained. I simply suggesting the LBP test shows some similarities in their recovery abilities, that may yield improved performance in the future if they are addressed as weaknesses.

As for the comments on Friel., any comments regarding Friel and the application of AT to training intensities as stated previously is fundamentally flawed by the fact that it is based on the false assumption that there is any such thing as an "anaerobic" situation in the human body.

So lesson number one in FacT - understand Physiology.

One of the things that will become apparent...the Conconi deflection point, or estimated "AT" will either make a lucky guess and be close to a much more precise method of determining the changes in metabolic situation in the body (LBP) or will overestimate it. If you are lucky, it will provide very similar recommendations to those based on LBP...if you are unlucky it will lead to overtraining.
Last edited by Robh on Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Long term results - LBP training

Postby Robh » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:31 am

A point that is made during the FaCT course all the time is if the client is only taken a few steps above LBP, they should recover quickly. If they are pushed too hard in the step test they will definitely have trouble recovering.

My previous tests have been reviewd by Juerg & Andrew and they were were deemed perfect but did show a consistent problem with poor wattage even after 9-12 minutes of recovery below LBP.

Rob
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Re: Long term results - LBP training

Postby Paul H » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:19 am

[quote]How do you know? Because you believe in percentages?


Yes I do. They are consistent and easy to measure and monitor. Unlike LBP which can go up 20 HR in a year and down again the next.

[quote]Rubbish? Eh? Hope you would say that to his face?


I would yes and but would only say to somebody who I felt would take it in the way I meant it. Its not all hard work in the Training Group, we enjoy a bit of banter as well. I dont think Keith or Sylv have rubbish aerobic systems - I think they have weaknesses elsewhere.

[quote]Why did they do well? Perhaps they have better survival technique...


Thats not a very scientific answer.

[quote]Was wondering when you would go down that route of I can beat you. Sooner than I expected you let me down.


I asked because I was interested to know what your wattage is so we could estimate Sylv's.

If Sylv had poor recovery would that not affect him when racing at Palace?

[quote]Yes Paul T.

So big drops are not just in the training group riders then

So who is the latest Guinea pig was it the ACC Chump?

[quote]Have you found a stronger athlete in any of the other ACC groups? If not why? Well I thought I did but you refused the test over a month ago.

Im in the Training Group and unfortunately not the strongest either. I have no special physiology -just an average Joe. I As I said at the time, thanks for the offer, but I have been tested a few times before so have the info I need. I also would not want to discourage anybody else from having the test - its just the interpritation of the results we will have to agree to disagree on.
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Re: Long term results - LBP training

Postby Robh » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:36 am

[quote="Paul H"]

[quote]Yes I do. They are consistent and easy to measure and monitor. Unlike LBP which can go up 20 HR in a year and down again the next.


The body changes Paul it's not a motor car it's a physiological system which has been explained on enough occasions.

Paul I believe you don't understand LBP which is fine as I also didnt once. Carry on reading and you might one day appreciates Juerg's work...

Both you and Toks have refused to join his forum to chat constructively and to learn that view points and ideas in training change they are not fixed in stone. So therefore there isn't much else I can offer for you....I have tried.

Best of luck

Rob
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Re: Long term results - LBP training

Postby Robh » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:47 am

Paul,

The reason you won't come on to the FaCT forum is IMO becuase your views would get shot down with Jeurg's 20 years of research and testing.

I got put in my palce many times by Juerg who gave valide reason why.

That's life though things aren't so black and white as you make it seemed to be just thave to except it or not.

Rob
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Re: Long term results - LBP training

Postby Paul H » Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:07 am

Im trying to give ACC members an alternative view on training. Im not interested in the FACT forum.

[quote]The body changes Paul it's not a motor car it's a physiological system which has been explained on enough occasions.


heart rates dont change much

[quote]Both you and Toks have refused to join his forum to chat constructively


Because our opinions on training differ to yours?

[quote]Paul I believe you don't understand LBP


I believe your right. I certainly dont understand why you are placing so much importance on it.

I was hoping you would be able to explain as I am always keen to try new training ideas but I have to get my head round it first.

If you could answer some of my questions it may help. i.e. Sylvs and Keith's perforamance in long distance races and Sylvs performance in Palace.

So is it Stu then?
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Re: Long term results - LBP training

Postby Robh » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:49 pm

I know your not intertested Paul you've told me 2-3 times.

Even though your training differs to the FaCT views wouldn't you want to speak to the experts and find out why it does?

I knwo I would if i could say speak to Peter Keen on a forum.

I think the terminology on their forum scares you...I've said myself I'm no expert and I'm learning like everyone else on this forum and take pride in what I do as witnessed by Apples when I told him there and then cocked up his test. I could have lied and fudged his test but I brought him back and tested him again with a modified test for FREE to make sure I got his LBP. Everytime something doesn't go to plan I learn each time.

I'm a very open person in life and work and deal with peopel all the time who are afraid of new ideas and changes. Your no different so no sweat off my back, don't thiink I've broek a swaet yet....Had plenty of sweat from teh otehr people I've tested...

The body changes and reacts different to training stimmulus and LBP is a good marker for this.
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Re: Long term results - LBP training

Postby Robh » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:50 pm

There is a very interesting discussion going on in the UK on how to train.( we had that discussion already 20 years ago and it will show up as often as people forget what FaCT really is.

Hard and intense or slow and long ?

Both "camps" use certain names and "bibles" to make their points. I like to make a clear point from our position of FaCT Canada.

FaCT stands for Feldmann and Chlebek test or Feldmann and Chelebek Trends.

What we do is? Searching worldwide for newest and affordable equipment to introduce to the research, as well as to the user comunity on the field.
We try to close the gap between research in the lab and practical application on the field.

To be able to serve our customers as good as possible we first test and study new ideas in the Lab. setting and see , whether we can use some trend and some info so it is applicable as well for the person on the field and for the coaches , health professionals and researchers.
With this approach (since over 20 years) we had the luck to learn and contact many very nice and very adventures and out of the box thinking people and researcher.
This helped as as well to test the equipment outside of the box and help equipment developper to give feedback on how we see or could see further development on this specific tools or ( toys)

This and the above contact leads us, to try to develop and test new ideas.
a) it started all out with a handheld point to point lactate tester and a first (PE 2500 ) wireless HR monitor )and is now so far advanced, that we work for the moment on non invasive cardiac testing equipment with Manatec ( Physio flow) with some very intriguing wireless respiratory equipment ( bio harness ) and the newest water proofed HR system ( Herb just got in )and we will test on the weekend in the pool.
Why do we do that ?

As a long time Physio therapist and coach and exercise physiology hungry guy I learned the tools to coach at the university . I got educated and was able to repeat what I learned.

After many years of knowing everything , I learned to understand that I really know nothing, but the fact , that the physiological system has very unique individual reactions .

Do make education simple , so we can repeat what we learn , we develop in schools and universities standard procedures to compare and repeat.
The key word is Statistics.

Many years of practical work learned me to take one person as an individual with individual reactions and needs.

This was the start to try and develop and still develop a testing approach, where we can find individual reactions and can compare the changes in this individual person step by step to learn and try to understand what kind of stressor ( training ) will produce what kind of a respond. So FaCT is exactly that . It is not NOT a training proposal or program at all. It is a tool in progress for any coach of any believes to see, whether his believe , what training and stress is ,really leads to the "planned" adaptation or whether it may not work at all.

The key problem of coaching is , that if the athletes makes progress we "believe" it is the training plan . ( perhaps it is the recovery plan or the nutritional plan ) Problem : as long the person makes progress it is difficult to argue against that plan. We may not know , whether it is really the plan or not.
If the person does not make progress , we are somewhat in trouble , as we don't know why .

By using the FaCT idea we can follow the changes ( progress and negative progress ) and may be able to see what biomarker or what systems actually change the performance due to certain intervention.

Based on this we may be able to slowly choose very individual intensities and stressors to work in the shortest time available for the biggest benefit .
So when people argue , that FaCT is LSD , than that is just simply an interpretation of a person and not the idea of FaCT. We train in all different "zones" but try to see, which zone at what stage is the most effective one.To be able to do this you need a testing tool and that is FaCT and what you learn in the FaCT education certification courses with Dr. Andrew Sellars.

The new philosophies of Lactate is not the cause of fatigue, there is no AT or VT is not identical with AT and there is never an anaerobic stage will further add to the need of searching for an objective testing idea individually based.

Over many years we where searching for intensities , which changes LBP levels and performance lines and we have a pretty good idea, how we in a short term ( functionally ) can change LBP and how long it will stay up in very specific athletes .

This thanks to hundreds of tests in all different situations.

The next "generation " in testing now is to see, whether classical ideas like VO2 max and LBP can be changed by finding other biomarkers so we can add them to lactate and respiration rate and test and re-test.

So all "wattage" believer can use FaCT as a tool to see, whether the zoning based on wattage actually changes the performance and if , what did really changed:
cardiac adjustment . pulmonary adjustments, metabolic changes , coordination changes and so on.
We use wattage as a clear objective performance tool to compare the above systems by the same wattage to see , what is contributing by a specific wattage level to this performance.

How much Cardiac work , how much pulmonary work/ how much metabolic input and so on. With this tool we can see possibly which of the above system may be at the current moment the limitation ( weakest link in the chain ) .

So FaCT -Canada is not a training program at all , it is a tool; for coaches and individuals to critically assess their believe , what their training philosophy will change in the physiological system after certain training intervention and this in the functional field as well as structural adaptation.
We support and offer service to the public , who really is critical to their own ideas and like to offer the best possible service to their clients by assessing their own ideas regular and objective, instead of selling a "religious" believe on what is the best based on very little research and real individual assessments.
We have cleints and universities, who use our ewuipment for many different reasons and many different ways exactly out of the above idea. Searching for tools to improve their own knowledge adn testing their own ideas.

So to all readers there is no FaCT training plan or FaCT Bible.

There is a FaCT test , where the different equipment are used to find the different limitations of the systems and see what intervention will change this test data.
Cardiac tools ( Polar and Physio flow water proofed HR equipment )
Respiratory tools ( Fit Mate , Spiro pet , Spiro Tiger, SpO2 tester and Bio harness )
Metabolic tools : Lactate pro.
Strenght assessment/ Coordination EMG and wattage trainers)

All this equipment ( depending on budget and ideas ) can be used in the FaCT protocol and it can than be used in the field.
So if wattage is the way you like to control intensity you use a wattage tool. If HR is the way you use intensity you use a HR monitor.
Ir respiratory information is the tool you may use a bioharness.
if you use HR based on trends in cardiac reation you may now use a Physioflow in connection with a HR monitor.
If you like to base it on lactate numbers or trends you use a Lactate pro.
After all the training you did based on your individual philosophy youi go back and test with FaCT and you will see, what changes your training idea has produced and in what system.

Summary :FaCT is your store for quality equipment and service for unique and best testing and training equipments
FaCT is an assessment tool , where you can use all this ewquipment to help your clients to get the best results for the time they are ready to invest and you can objectively control your own idea of the planning and see, whether your client reacts accordingly . If yes great , if now you can react and adjust the training plan.
FaCT equipment will help you to move yourself above the "educated" coach by producing your individual approach to your client with unique testing tools.

Hmm I sound like a "sales person " but I think all of our sutomers know, that we try to help as good and as honest as we can.
One of our very active writers here. Rob from UK may remember why he contacted me and what my advice at that time was to him and where he should spent his money. Thanks for reading all of that. Juerg
Last edited by Robh on Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Long term results - LBP training

Postby Robh » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:54 pm

The best thing Paul is for Andrew Seallars to come to the UK to discuss the FaCT ideas.

Would peopel be intertested in him coming?

Cheers Rob
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Re: Long term results - LBP training

Postby Paul H » Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:07 pm

Scared - now your being silly

I refer to my previous post

Im trying to give ACC members an alternative view on training. Im not interested in the FACT forum.

I was hoping you would be able to explain as I am always keen to try new training ideas but I have to get my head round it first.

If you could answer some of my questions it may help. i.e. Sylvs and Keith's perforamance in long distance races and Sylvs performance in Palace.

So is it Stu then?
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Re: Long term results - LBP training

Postby Robh » Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:18 pm

[quote="Paul H"]Scared - now your being silly

I refer to my previous post

Im trying to give ACC members an alternative view on training. Im not interested in the FACT forum.

I was hoping you would be able to explain as I am always keen to try new training ideas but I have to get my head round it first.

If you could answer some of my questions it may help. i.e. Sylvs and Keith's perforamance in long distance races and Sylvs performance in Palace.

So is it Stu then?


Well Join if your not...That's the assumption your giving me Paul.

Don't know enough about Sylv & Keith...Need to do more tests and trends and see how they react. Did Keith actually go to PE efort of 8 or 9 might explain why his first few recovery points are low.

Like I say I'm learning no denying that and so are you with your questions. Anything I don't understand I email Andrew who helps me. Remember this is an hobby not my full time job.

They haven't told me what they think is their weakness they tell their coach and he prescribes their training plan and I restest etc...

What about Stu what do you mean?
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