Smiling George LBP test 22-10-08

[Sylv]

yes mark but i got home close to 1am, will have them maybe tonight

more thanks to jon for the brake (forgot about the cake - next time), ian for the pedals and andy for the book

[Sylv]

ok i'm tired and bored so i played a bit with the watt/speed calculator I posted about elsewhere, plugging the figures for george's TT times this season, for various distances.

I assumed he was 73kg when racing, 1m85, o a "triathlon bike" and with zero wind or slope - so all very theoretical you'll agree - but as the TTs are on round trips you could argue that wind/slope "kind of" cancel out.

you would need more races to hope establish a trend but that will do for now. at least it would show that the Tacx figure of 400w for an hour was unrealistic. still you'll agree some of the figures he maintains for 2h are pretty impressive.


16.1 km - Team Sanjan Design - 00:22:56 - 42.1 km/h - 327 w - 20 min
16.1 km - Addiscombe CC (President's 10) - 00:22:12 - 43.5 km/h - 358 w - 20 min
16.1 km - Crabwood CC - 00:20:51 - 46.3 km/h - 425 w - 20 min
16.1 km - Addiscombe CC club event - 00:22:21 - 43.2 km/h - 350 w - 20 min
16.1 km - SCCU - 00:21:50 - 44.2 km/h - 373 w - 20 min

40.2 km - Poole Wheelers - 01:00:21 - 40.0 km/h - 284 w - 60 min

80.5 km - ECCA - 01:54:20 - 42.2 km/h - 329 w - 120 min
80.5 km - Charlotteville CC - 01:55:05 - 41.9 km/h - 322 w - 120 min
80.5 km - Finsbury Park CC - 01:59:07 - 40.5 km/h - 293 w - 120 min
80.5 km - SCCU - 02:01:57 - 39.6 km/h - 275 w - 120 min

160.9 km - ECCA - 04:09:53 - 38.6 km/h - 257 w - 240 min
160.9 km - SCCU - 04:11:05 - 38.4 km/h - 254 w - 240 min

421.6 km - ECCA (National championships) - 12.00 - 35.1 km/h - 199 w - 1,440 min

[Juerg FaCT]

[quote="Jon Hemming"]

Second, power meters are always touted as being so much better than HR as a training tool as they give a direct measure of your output, whereas HR can fluctuate according to other factors. So why does the LBP test end up with a HR figure rather than a power figure, or could you use express it as either?

Lastly, like you were saying, most people don't think about their breathing, it just happens. I'm sure I read a while ago (sorry, can't remember where) that lung capacity / breathing is very rarely a limiting factor on aerobic performance, and that basically your lungs can always supply more than enough oxygen for your blood to be fully oxygenated. If that's right, I'm wondering why the focus on breathing?

[Juerg FaCT]

Just to add some thoughts to the test above:
It is a very interesting test , and it will be nice to see further tests in a few weeks , depending what kind of workouts are done.
Problem : One single test will give us some information , but subsequent tests will give us some trends.
Here just some points :
1. HRV was below 4 alreay in the first stage ( 140 wattage) and a HR by 134 . So yes the recovery zone for the cardiac system is lower.
Interesting now to see is, that his first point HR /Watt was off the performance line ( above. ) If you think that through , than you would be able to argue, thst if it would be on the line the HR would be higher at 140. This is often the case in many tests, ( points are below the line )
Here some thoughts:
A lower HR ,than expected from the performance line, would indicate , that this person is reacting first over an increase in stroke volume ( SV) and not as many other people do over HR.
People with very good trained cardiac systems will show that kind of a line . First beating stronger , before beating faster. This is not very common with exception of highly cardiac trained cyclists.
2. If you now go and re-assess the SpO2 values and teh respiration rate you see an interesting trend there as well.
HR RR SpO2
27 97
29 97
154 30 96
159 31 94
So we see an increase in RR by a HR of 155+- and just before that. And we see despite that RR increase a drop in SpO2 .
There are different reasons why RR is increasing.
One of the reasons is a shift from mainly fat + O2 to more likely glucose and O2 . This Will increase the CO2 production . Now CO2 has some benefits and some disadvantage as well.
a) benefit it is a very potent if not the most potent stimmulator for RR . Reason: CO2 is controlling the RR not O2.
second benefit could be the shift in the O2 Diss cuve to the right. In much easier words . The O2 is "glued" against the red blood cells
. now if CO2 is going up , it helps to "unglue" the O2 from the red blood cells ( Shift of the curve to the right ). This is another nice example , how the body tries to "survive" so in case of lower O2 availablility and or harder physical work , we need more O2 and this is one way of dealing with it.
So back to the test.
George sems to had some demand of O2 in teh above situation and his body increase RR to deal with it. Unfortunately not very succesfull , as despite the RR increase and more air the body had to move over to "unglue" more O2 from the Hb ( hemoglobin). By doing that to help to
maintain a proper O2 situation in the respiratory system , as well as in the heart itself , he started to de-load more O2 and we can see that in the drop of SpO2.
Now here an interesting next step.
Because there where many areas asking for O2 : Leg muscles , Brain , pulmonary system and heart and others, but there is only so much O2 available the "fight" will start for this available O2.
Now the information will have to be "sorted" out. Not by wattage , but with the brain. The CGM ( central governor model) will make, lucky for us ,a decision that it is crucial to keep the O2 situation going in the vital organs and therefor wilchange the blood flow or the muscle recruitment pattern in the legs.
This in turn will change the way the legs have to try to prodcue ATP. So it will change from mainly O2 dependent to partially now as well O2 independent energy production.
Short story : This will have some lactate production as a result and we will be able to see that in the blood.
See LBP by George. Summary : George may be one of the athletes where potentially the respiratory system may be for the moment one of the limiting factores. So please come back with critical questions so we can keep a nice open discussion going .
Juerg
Sorry Typos but this is a responds between patients . ( he he good excuse for a bad english )
Tok I am a bit disappointed, you did not sent me flowers for the Quote I was able to put on the previous post

[George]

I think my breathing could be one area indeed where I would improve with training.
I noticed that when I was 300+ w (that's all I could keep an eye on in the test) my breathing was becoming very hard and fast I was really struggling to get enough oxygen into my lungs.
When I went up to 320w I was almost hyperventilating, just only thinking about breathing and not really getting enough air in.

[Robh]

Juerg,

George expressed an interest in the Spirotiger a few weeks ago so I suggested to him to get an LBP test done first which is now done.

I've ordered the Spiropet Spirometer from Herb over a week ago and it's now arrived so need to pick it up from the post office tomorrow.

[img]http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/sbc205/Spiropet.jpg[/img]

What's the best way forward for George now that I have the tool to measure his Forced Vital Capacity?

Cheers Rob

[Juerg FaCT]

I like to give here some additional thoughts on wattage zones and FaCT zoning.
Many readers may be surprised, but the zonings are very close the same, just different names.
The fundamental differences is, that we adjust the intensity based on physiological reactions the body has to follow , so it can survive. That means , that under certain situations we have to give up the physical performance ( wattage) due to energy needs in other areas, than the legs. Areas, which are more important for the body than maintaining a fixed wattage.
If we don't allow that, we will change the exertion on the body and we will change the way the body would respond otherwise.
It is unlikely that a fixed wattage under cetrain situation will have the same training effect.
Example training in heat , versus training in good temp. 250 wattage in cool but nice conditions will be very different as a stress on your body , than under 40 degrees conditions. It is for me very difficult to understand , how people can argue differently , but I am open to read any research , who can proof the opposite.
Training after a few days recovery or training after 3 days of a 12 hour shift and than pushing the same wattage will not just feel different but will have 2 completely different physiological responses. If this would be not the case, than any pre race preparation would be of no value , as 250 wattage is always the same effort. Jet leg would not exist and glucose loading would be of no value.
Altitude would have no influence and so on.
All the "negative " variables the wattage groups bring up against HR are exactly that : HR is a physiological biomarker, telling us how the different changes will affect the cardiac system.
Respiration rate will tell us how this different changes may influence metabolic as well as pulmonary reactions. Lactate trends will tell us changes in metabolic requirements.
If you now combine that with wattage , you can nicely see and understand the bodies reactions.
I will show you first the zoning discussion after the test by George.
If we take the wattage idea than we have the Poole Wheeler TT over 40.2 km with a time of just 1 h and a wattage info of 284 wattage.
This would be the FTP and considered 100 % in the power school
Now here side by side the zonings.
Power zoning FaCT zoning in HR and the wattage with it
Zone 1 watts below 155 Rec zoning 117 watt below 140
Zone 2 ( incr. threshold power) 156 - 213 W STF 117 - 140 HR / 140 - 210 watt
Zone 3 Tempo 213 - 255 FTF a - LBP 140 - 155 210 - 250
Zone 4 Threshold 255 - 298 Glucolytic 155- 170 250 - 297
Zone 5 VO2 max 298 -340 Phosphagen 170 and up 297 and up
Zone 6 Anaerobic 340 - 420

The sst zone is 198 - 298 the LBP +- is 155 250 +_ watt

That would mean if George likes to do a traiing effect for his aerobic capacity based on A. Coggan he would have to work out on or in Zone 2 156 - 213 wattage.
If he follows the idea of Rob abd his recommendation for the STF zone he would have to stick to a HR of 117 - 140 which will show a wattage load of 140 - 210 watt s.
Surprised ?
Now as you can see very little differences.
The main difference is, that in the FaCT idea we use not just wattage and hang on.
We use HR , RR , lactate and wattage to assess, whether certain outside influences like heat , cold, airpollution, altitude and internal differences like glycogen storage, fat availablity, O2 transporation, pulmonary changes ( cold and or allergies due to pollution or pollen ) hydration perhaps even clothe , who may restrict free motions , will change and we may have, due to this changes , give up some wattage % to maintain the same physiological stress and not move out of the zoning.
Again a workout starts in cool situations and moves into warmer areas.
Here a very practical example:
Girona training camp Spain.
2 hour workout at LBP . Equipment Trek bike with SRM.
2 top pro riders. One working with FaCT idea , the other with wattage idea. Similar ability.
So workout at LBP for one and workout at SST zone ( sweet Spot Training at upper level of that 90 % of FTP.
The start at the coast ( Tossa de Mar ) morning 9.00 / shade along the Costa Brava, Temp 10 - 15 degrees. ) Both can ride side by side in their Zone.
Coming out of the coast inland towards Pelleia . Temp moves in 10 min up to 30 - 35 degrees in the sun.
The cyclist can't ride anymore together . The FaCT rider drops back very fast ( loss of about 15 - 20 % performance by the same HR and breathing rate.
Wattage rider takes off as he stayes with his wattage..
.Short before the restaurant and church on the top of Pellaja the FaCT riders passes relaxed the wattage rider, which can't maintain his wattage anymore and the HR is way to high . On the top we take a lactate sample FaCT rider 2.4 and 8 min with same HR 2.2 ( flat road ) and still LBP HR. Wattage rider 8.7 and very flat. Normally he would have a lactate close or by 2.2 as they are very equal.
Finish the workout with a cool down towards Girona.
Question is here clear. One cyclist stuck to the wattage ( or at least tried ) and the other stuck to the biomarkers.
Which of the 2 do, you think, was working the 2 hours in the zone he was planning to stress. ?
Question 2 . Which workout will give us a good feed back if something should change in performance ?

[quote] Question is here clear. One cyclist stuck to the wattage ( or at least tried ) and the other stuck to the biomarkers.
Which of the 2 do, you think, was working the 2 hours in the zone he was planning to stress. ?

[Sylv]

The photos are in link below - I'll post a few here later

http://www.flickr.com/photos/patronchou ... 311169957/

[Robh]

[img]http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/sbc205/2966807967_81e7001239.jpg[/img]

Huw warming Georges hands as he warmed up and myself adjusting the Bioharness belt to get correct readings.

[Sylv]

go ahead with the comments Rob if you want, you are better placed than me to do so

[Robh]

[quote="Sylv"]go ahead with the comments Rob if you want, you are better placed than me to do so

[George]

[img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3070/2967661452_1c84f1b5a2.jpg?v=0[/img]
Me really suffering whilst all around are pricking, reading and sucking

[Robh]

Sean,

Remember that look Geroge has when you did your test last Saturday?

Then you had do that look again when I pushed you hard for a miniute

[Robh]

[img]http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/sbc205/2966807737_69267053df.jpg[/img]

George warming up and as you can see wearing 2 belts one is the Bioharness and the other is the Polar.

[img]http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/sbc205/2967653170_3ba413d688.jpg[/img]

Close up showing the Oximeter used to measure 02 saturation.

[img]http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/sbc205/2967659236_25f2c60e7d.jpg[/img]

Taking HRV, HR, breathing rate & O2 saturation @ rest.

[img]http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/sbc205/2967654312_2cf5a6bf7c.jpg[/img]

This is the first time trying to get blood from his finger for the resting lactate which proved initially hard due to lack of circulation. Got easier as his hands wamred up during the test.