FaCT Clear and Simple .....part 2

I know all this training business makes us sound a bit serious but, well, some people really are into this bike lark so feel free to talk about all training & self improvement related topics in here

Re: FaCT Clear and Simple .....part 2

Postby Tony » Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:03 am

P.S. Not sure my previous post actually said anything. But it killed a 5-10mins I had spare before leaving work to catch the train home!
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Re: FaCT Clear and Simple .....part 2

Postby -Adam- » Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:26 am

[quote="Paul H"]Hasnt Stu and Steve beat you in Road Races. Didnt George beat you in a TT?


Only in Handicap's, where I have been started with the scratch group. But yeah, fair point! Would like to see how well certain people would fair if they were consistently started with the scratch group mind. I have still had high placings in from scratch group starts, 4 top 10's. Not all from sprints either.

George beating me in the presidents 10? For a start a TT outside of a stage race is but a training ride (the day after the presidents 10 I had a top 10 in the Elite race around Cutmill, and I rode 98 miles the day before the TT :wink: ). Also, if I were prepared to dress up in a skin suit, put on a silly helmet, spend x k's on a TT bike, we'd see how big that barely 20 second gap would have been then ay... :P

[quote="Paul H"]Last March I suspect there was a number of TG riders stronger than you.


And now? After a full year of sensible, TG'less training...

[quote="Paul H"]They may not have the final sprint or use your tactics to win a race though.


I rest my case, it is possible to train a sprint! Why is it that Steve is the only properly decent sprinter in ACC?

[quote="Tony"]Adam's earlier comments are pretty much spot on the money. Apart from the bit about him being a better rider than all the current crop of ACC racers. :roll:


:lol:
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Re: FaCT Clear and Simple .....part 2

Postby Robh » Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:44 am

I asked Andrew what vital stat meant and it's the summary of all the different functions the body is monitoring during exercise :-

thermo-stat
chemo-stat
resp-stat
cardio-stat
neuro-stat
metabo-stat
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Re: FaCT Clear and Simple .....part 2

Postby Paul H » Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:20 am

[quote]And now? After a full year of sensible, TG'less training...


Maybe but I would argue racing all summer is not dissimilar to doing TG rides. When I raced, I wouldnt do a TG ride as well.

[quote]
I rest my case, it is possible to train a sprint! Why is it that Steve is the only properly decent sprinter in ACC?


While you can improve it with training, Sprinting is a genetic gift and depends on how many FT fibers you have. Beware - you will loose it as you get older and I lost mine by doing too much low intensity stuff in the past. But Im guessing you maintain your sprint over the winter.
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Re: FaCT Clear and Simple .....part 2

Postby Robh » Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:01 am

The text below was posted by Jack Sasseville yesterday in a reply to my thread on the FaCT forum :-

I have been a reader of this forum for many years and have read with greater interest over the past 6 months. I have followed Juerg's work with FACT for the past 10 years and have used his ideas to help me to train my skiers.

I am a former National Cross Country Ski Team Coach for Canada and have coached 4 Olympic teams. I have been coaching for over 30 years at all levels and I continue to coach at the club level in Ontario.

When I began to coach in the 1970's my biggest influence in training was Arthur Lydiard and the other coaches and athletes who were also influenced by him like Tom Osler and Rob Dawes. Lydiard coached some of the greatest runners in the late 1960's and 1970's and spawned a whole generation of runners who did Long Slow Distance (LSD).

Lydiard believed in periodization and that too much high intensity interval training was bad at a time when interval training was king. He felt that all endurance runners would be better off doing most of their training at a level of 70-100% of maximum steady state. He found max steady state by asking his runners to run for 30 minutes as fast as they could on a flat out and back course. If the time for the second 15 minutes was the same as the first then this was max steady state, if it was slower then the runner went too fast, if faster then they went too slow (sounds a lot like Coggin's test doesn't it).

He wanted his runners to run at this 70-100% of max steady state exclusively up to 12 weeks before their peak race or racing season and to do no interval training during this time. At the start of the period they were to slowly build up to their max mileage (the magic number was 100 miles a week) and then once this was reached they were to start running faster, but never over 100% of max steady state. They were also to have a long run per week and to vary the amount each day.
This is where it went off the rails. Many runners took this to be the way to train all the time and LSD training was born.

However, Lydiard did not believe that this was all that you were supposed to do for training. The next period was 6 weeks of "hill training" done 3 x per week. The hills were 3-7 minutes long. There was still one long run a week and several shorter ones, all below max steady state. After 6 weeks on the hills the runners then moved to the track for 6 weeks. Twice a week they did shorter 200-400 meter intervals with one hill workout, a long workout and several shorter steady state workouts.

I see the same thing happening with Robh in the UK as I have seen with those people who followed Lydiard. They take one part of the program and suppose that this is all there is to the program.

Steady State training, or LBP - 20 training will only train one part of the system the slow twitch fibers. In order to be the best that you can be, however, you must also train the fast twitch fibers. Lydiard knew this 40 years ago.

I have always coached using the "Goldilocks" theory - that there are three ways to do things - too much, too little and just right! What each of us must do is to find out what is just right for us - just right for training, for nutrition, for recovery, for intensity, for volume, for speed, for strength, for life. This is why there can be no cook books, because just right is different for each of us. And to make it even more fun, just right changes all the time.

In all of the hundreds of training programs that I have done over the years there has not been one that has been followed without changes. Training programs are just "best guesses" based on the experience of coach and athlete supported by testing. What works for one person will not work for another.

What Juerg is promoting with FACT is not too dissimilar than what Lydiard told us 40 years ago. Train long enough for structural changes, do it individually, test to see how it is working, train some more, test, and repeat. Train one part of the system, test then train another part and test again.

It is ok to go out and "hammer" on group rides as long as it is not too much for you. It is the same thing with LBP-20 training - it is good, but too much will not get you to your best.

It really all depends on what your goals are for training. If you are riding or skiing for fun and a hammerhead ride with your friends is fun then do it.
If however, you are looking to maximize your potential then this will have to fit into your overall training plan. Too much and you will have to compromise somewhere else.

I will continue to read this forum as I feel that it is the most informative place for leading edge exercise physiology. It is where I learned that lactate is my friend not my enemy. Keep up the great work Juerg.
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Re: FaCT Clear and Simple .....part 2

Postby Michelle » Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:44 pm

RobH's forum mate said

[quote] It is where I learned that lactate is my friend not my enemy.


Love it!

And that is the point, don't just do the LBP-20 training, remember to do your 20% of your workouts doing the faster stuff too.
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Re: FaCT Clear and Simple .....part 2

Postby Robh » Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:52 pm

[quote="Michelle"]RobH's forum mate said

[quote] It is where I learned that lactate is my friend not my enemy.


Love it!

And that is the point, don't just do the LBP-20 training, remember to do your 20% of your workouts doing the faster stuff too.


Or 25, 30%, etc...What ever works for you.
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Re: FaCT Clear and Simple .....part 2

Postby Sylv » Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:37 pm

[quote="Michelle"]RobH's forum mate said

[quote] It is where I learned that lactate is my friend not my enemy.


Love it!

And that is the point, don't just do the LBP-20 training, remember to do your 20% of your workouts doing the faster stuff too.

Since posting pictures seems to be the in-thing ...

Is this what you're thinking of Michelle :D

[img]http://www.rrj.ca/blog/archives/iceberg2.JPG[/img]
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Re: FaCT Clear and Simple .....part 2

Postby Jon H » Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:50 pm

[quote="Sylv"]Is this what you're thinking of Michelle :D


Or this...

[img]http://www.sanderscandy.com/images/22797ColonialButtercreamTeaCake.jpg[/img]
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Re: FaCT Clear and Simple .....part 2

Postby Robh » Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:05 pm

Here's how Jack Sasseville uses zone training on Cross Country skiers :-

Over the years I have used many of the different ways of creating training zones. We have used Conconi tests, % of max hr, lactate testing in the lab and in the field amongst many others.

Lately, however, our training zones have been set to try to use them to train using the Muscle Factor Model that has been written about by Richard Gibbens on the Power Running website.

Our Zone 1 forms the bulk of our training - here we are primarily interested in training the slow twitch fibers. We use LBP - 20 as the upper limit for this training zone. Some athletes are up to LBP -10 and some are down to LBP-30 as the upper limit.

Our zone 2 is LBP to LBP-20. Here we are trying to train the Fast A fibers, but at a lactate level where it will still be under steady state. This is the racing pace for longer distance races such as 50 km.

Zone 3 is LBP to LBP+10-15. Here we are still training the Fast A fibers, but have to do it with intervals or shorter training bouts. For xc skiing, this is race pace training for most distances except the very long races or sprints.

Zone 4 is LBP +10 and higher and is done with shorter intervals and longer rest.

In the future I am thinking about combining zone 2 and 3 as they are training the same muscle fibers.

On another thread I mentioned that Arthur Lydiard was a big influence on my coaching. This continues to be the case.

40 years ago he did not train with training zones per se. He believed that endurance runners should train at 70-100% of maximum steady state for most of the year. At the start of the year the goal was to build up to a certain mileage per week and once that was attained then the runner was to run faster for the same mileage, but never above max steady state. Also at the start of the training year the runner was to run the same mileage every day, but later they were to add a long run per week and to vary the amount run each day to create harder and easier days. Lydiard believed that 1 - 2 hr run was better than 2 -1 hr runs for endurance.

12 weeks before peaking he had his runners do 6 weeks of hill training (3-7 minutes). This was done 3 x week with a long run and shorter steady state runs in betweeen. This training was for the Fast A fibers.

After 6 weeks there was a 6 week period of track intervals - short 200-400 meter intervals for the Fast B fibers.

I still believe that this is the best structure for a training program for endurance athletes. Testing should help us to find where each of these zones start and finish so that we can have the athletes training correctly.

"Overtraining" is most of the time training too fast - you think that you are training the Slow Twitch fibers but you are really training the Slow Twitch and the Fast A. When the emphasis in training moves to the Fast A fibers they are already fatigued and do not respond - the athlete does not improve.
This time of training usually comes during the early racing season in xc.As a result the skier cannot race very fast - they become "diesels".
So, what I am looking for is a testing protocol that will tell me when my athletes are training slow twitch fibers only, when they switch to fast A fibers and when they are working Fast B fibers so that they can do the training that they are supposed to do. This will also help me to monitor if the training that they are doing is working.

We have developed a field test that helps us to see what the relative ability each athlete has between these 3 fiber types. After a LBP test in the am the skiers find a gradual uphill and ski or roller ski up the hill for 5 minutes at LBP -20 and mark the spot where they finish the 5 minutes. They then return to the start and go up the same route from start to finish at LBP and take the time. They return once more to the start and do the course as fast as they can go and record the time.If someone is weak in the slow twitch fibers then the relative speed for the fastest trial will be much faster as an example of some of things that we have learned. We repeat this test often especially at the end of a period of training one of the muscle fiber groups to see the effect of the training. We have seen big changes in some athletes who are have poor endurance this summer by training primarily with slow twitch fibers and then seeing the results on this test. We are now moving into the next period of fast A training and will use this test to see the results of our training.

I believe that to be your best you must train all of your muscle fibers correctly. Each fiber needs training in a different way and can handle different training loads. Slow Twitch fibers respond slowly and as most endurance athletes are predominantly slow twitch animals they need more training. Fast B fibers respond very quickly, tire quickly and do not need as much training to be at their best. Fast A fibers are somewhere in the middle. The art of training is to discover what is best for each person, knowing that everyone is changing all the time.
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Re: FaCT Clear and Simple .....part 2

Postby Michelle » Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:40 pm

Sylv, if that is the ice in a very large gin and tonic, then yes I was thinking of that.

Sorry, no cake with G & T, doesn't go.

Need a cuppa for that.
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Re: FaCT Clear and Simple .....part 2

Postby Paul H » Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:13 am

Remember it is the tip of the Iceberg that does the damage

[size=200]honeberg[/size]



[img]http://www.ice-berg.dk/wallpaper_iceberg_ilulissat.jpg[/img]


[size=150]factberg[/size]



[img]http://www.wunderground.com/data/wximagenew/b/basicbill/117.jpg[/img]
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Re: FaCT Clear and Simple .....part 2

Postby Sylv » Mon Nov 10, 2008 2:00 pm

:lol:

Remember it's the holes that make the flavor

[size=200]g(J)ard(l)sberg[/size]

[img]http://assets.goodmagazine.com/uploaded/images/embedded_image/19796/jarlsberg_EM.jpg[/img]
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Re: FaCT Clear and Simple .....part 2

Postby Michelle » Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:16 pm

Honestly Paul, how childish!!!!
[size=70]
But quite funny really...[/size]
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