General Racing Discussion(ex-Norwood Paragon thread)

[Mulberry]

Marco, I'm not sure when the Paragon agreed to go mixed, but it probably wasn't that long after ACC made that decision.

There are couple of factors re women racers:
- women are generally a lot less keen to join clubs than men who are generally more "clubbable" than women.
- the Paragon does less "easy" rides or beginner's rides so you need to be up to a certain standard generally in order to just keep up on our club runs.
- 99% of our members who do our club runs are racers and this can deter people plus it means those out on club runs want to go at a reasonable pace
- Due to the above we have less club runs in the summer as our members are all racing and the summer is the key time that women and novice riders may wish to join a cycling club.
- Club Runs, even aggreeable ones are generally a little bit cliquey and can be quite daunting to women riders in particular.
- London Dynamo has a larg volume of women racers largely cos it's got 300+ members and there are a lot of triathletes in the Dynamo
- Dare I say it the difference in phsyiology between men and women means that women have to be very high standard to keep up with male cyclist of only an average standard - eg Nicole Cooke was allowed to ride in the Ras de Cymru which is a men's 2/3 cat stage race. I don't think they would have accepted Paolo Bettini's or Tom Boonen's entry though.

Getting more people out on bikes and racing whether they are male or female is always a challenge especially in the UK. However with over 13,000 members of BC taking out racing licences in 2009 we will hopefully see that change. Good luck to you Michelle and all the ladies out there who are pinning a number on their back.

Marcus

[Michelle]

OK, well I can see why NP is not quite as accessible then, you gotta have some 'gonads' as a woman to be able to ride out with them for most of the time, so that answers my question.

But we still have the issue of why ACC isn't fielding more women racers? We are certainly set up to be more female orientated with lots of different groups to take your pick. And granted, Marcus, the physiology thing is a big part of why we don't go as fast. I suppose that with 300 members in theory we ought to be getting as good a team as Dynamo. But come on, there are plenty of women out there who are as strong and much stronger than I am. Why am I the only one in our club that is doing any racing....(at the minute).

I remember that Marco and Huw asked this question ages ago, beginning of last year, and I didn't really know as I am not your normal demographic. Marcus's info has helped shed some light on it. But we have women 'braving' the traffic, so why not more racing.

Would be nice to have some female company sometimes......

[Stu Merckx Man]

im probably wrong but,

it seems to me that addiscombe doesn't really try or want to attract racing members. whenever anyone mentions addiscombe and attracting racers they are met with 'we are a cycling club not a racing club' . so why would a woman intent on wanting to be supported or guided into racing want join us? they can go to london dynamo with lots of other women racers and be helped and supported through it and encouraged . its the same with young riders too i feel, surely with a club the size of addiscombe there is the depth and finance to be able to have some kind of a development program, or kit like bikes and rollers and power taps and things like that for young riders wanting to race to use, or any racers wanting to use and also free kit?. for a young person its very hard to afford the things needed, i know i struggled and my social life suffered greatly !!. i know im not a junior anymore so i dont expect any of this, but maybe for future youngsters?. (sorry for the hijack there)

it also seems that promoting racing is on the fringe of addiscombes priorities, and is never taken seriously by those in positions of power and responsibility within the club, im not criticising anyone at all, but the structure as a whole. the people 'high up' mostly seem to be general club run riders, and so cant be expected to passionately pursue racing if they are not into it, and i am not placing blame with anyone at all . i cant think of any road racers in positions of power (im not talking vice captains), i know its also up to racing memebers to take to the helm if a place opens up, but are there any places?

just as an example of this- the club dinner (fantastic by the way), but there was not much mention of the road racing. no mention of the club championships? georges performance in the cyclocross, paul hones performance in the duathlon WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS, michelle coming 4th in the SE championships. i know there was some written stuff in the program, but nothing was actually said.

stu

[Stu Merckx Man]

another point i thought of-

i dont think its helpful when we ask very good racers, with vast experience and knowledge to leave the club run if they dont join. they bring a lot to the club by just being around and accessible. ive lost count of the times dave Kennett has helped me out and given me advice, and i know he has not exactly been welcomed on occasion, and yet he has made it 100% clear to me that i would be welcome on the NP clubrun and not be expected to leave or join.

its hardly going to attract racing members both male or female if addiscombe has an attitude like that.

[Michelle]

Well I dunno. Maybe that's how it is going to be.

You know, thinking about it, they also didn't mention a lot of other stuff that other cyclists get up to. What about all the sportives and don't some of our club do Audaxes and Reliability rides? All the cross stuff that has been going on recently? No one seems to get a mention. Although I loved the dinner, surely it should be a celebration of what the members of the club have achieved over the past year. It doens't have to be hours long ....

There was a very minimal amount of information given about the club and how well it had done in anything over the year. I know I was a bit half cut, but I don't really remember any of our achievements being mentioned.

There were presentations but if you are not with the club long, then you don't know what they are for. Likewise although the awards were listed in the 'programme' on the tables that didn't really explain anything. I still don't know what the Pip Heathfield Cup is really for (well that may be because I haven't looked it up yet )

So where does that leave us. You are a bit annoyed because you think the club should show more recognition/encouragement of racing and especially with young riders. You say that we need more young riders, and you are right there are very few.

I am a bit lonely (sniff) on the womens racing side, and I would like a bit more company and perhaps some race training a bit more geared to my level and other women's levels of fitness.

I think as the club gets bigger and bigger, and people cycle more and get stronger we are going to get more serious about the areas of cycling that we can do be it racing, TT's, sportives, Audaxes, whatever. Therefore should we start looking at developing these areas more formally within the club structure as opposed to sorting it out as we have done in the past via the Forum?

[Antloony]

wow this has opened up a can of worms. Some interesting points of views from both Stu and Michelle.

We are very low on young riders, one thing I noticed when first joining the club. Surely its in the clubs interest to promote itself to encorouge the younger generation to join. Its all very well being the biggest club but numbers mean nothing if young blood isn't being brought through the ranks. People will leave as they move on to other things and no one will be there to replace them.

As for the racing side of things its very poorly represented in the club imo. We have a wealth of experience and years of racing history within the club but its never used. Maybe its time the club took on an identity as either just a social cycling club or an all rounder and something to be proud of racing and riding for. I want to be proud of pulling on an ACC shirt at a race and seeing the clubs name in print along side mine when I do well, the more success we have in racing the more racers we'll attract which hopefully will include more women.

I'd like to see a move forward, more help to keen racers, perhaps use some of the clubs money to get a coach for those interested in racing. Lets stop banging on about being the biggest club, numbers mean nothing without something else to be proud of.

[-Adam-]

I'm glad this thread has developed in the way it has. What has been detailed as lacking from Addiscombe is generally commonplace in NP. I wasn't the first person to leave ACC (as 1st claim anyway) for the reasons I did, but that was a long time ago and nothing has really changed.

The website is just one small part of ACC that needs updating.

But this discussion is at least going in the right direction. I'll probably get crucified for this post, but thats how it is.

A lot could be done with ACC, and it doesn't necessarily take masses of hours of input from people. Just waking up to the idea that the club is not perfect, as many people view it, is the first step.

[quote="-Adam-"]A lot could be done with ACC, and it doesn't necessarily take masses of hours of input from people. Just waking up to the idea that the club is not perfect, as many people view it, is the first step.

[Andrew G]

I remember Annette was on the John Leitch training sessions I did a few years ago. She was there specifically to help teach/coach the women as she said one of the reasons she'd given up racing was the open category of women's racing, so that you had a complete novice in there with a top rider. She said there was a lot of poor bike handling which made some races dangerous. What she was doing with John was providing a base of basic skills so that as they improved they would be able to race safely.

michelle wrote- [quote]I think as the club gets bigger and bigger, and people cycle more and get stronger we are going to get more serious about the areas of cycling that we can do be it racing, TT's, sportives, Audaxes, whatever. Therefore should we start looking at developing these areas more formally within the club structure as opposed to sorting it out as we have done in the past via the Forum?

[Tony]

The earlier posts were a bit of a dig at the Paragon, but it seems there's more digging in ACC's direction now! Interestingly when my membership expired and I was being reminded of such, I raised the following by email:

One thing that has always confused me with the ACC, which you may be able to clarify, is that I don't fully understand what the club stands for. For example, among the long-term members we've got some exceptionally accomplished older boys and girls. However, their past achievements don't fully reconcile with the current racing standards / aspirations within the club.

As a club, ACC seems to be very good at getting riders through the door and out on the Saturday clubrun. However, I'm not sure what aspirations the club has over and above that. Are there any objectives or a plan / strategy for developing the club? By way of a related example, I understand the club is also reasonably solvent - however, I've no idea what is planned with the funds to help develop the club further.

If you have any details about where the club wants to be and what activities / behaviours / attitudes will help it get there, they would be much appreciated. It will help me to confirm if the club's culture and aspirations make it the right place for me.

I never really got a satisfactory answer. I am not currently a member of ACC nor indeed any club. In fact, the last time I rode my bike at all was in July last year!

Of course, ACC is a club and to a large extent what you put in is what you get out. However, ACC misses having people who have been-there seen-it done-it as far as road-racing is concerned. E.g. how many ex-pros or former plan riders or multi-time winners of elite-level local races or riders who tried to get in to the top level on the continent do ACC have? The current ACC culture simply ain't the best for riders serious about their racing and wanting to develop beyond about 2nd Cat level. Having said that, there are not that many clubs that are. If ACC had someone with the experience and a big personality to fill the gap, it would help enormously. Not sure who that person is or how many more years it will take to develop them mind!

[Paul H]

I think you find in all sports, that there are clubs you join as beginners (ACC) and there are clubs you move onto when you get more serious (NP). Im not sure that this can be resolved in ACC or if it is even a problem. I dont think you can have a club that does evertything. Perhaps there should be some sort of collaboration with NP?

Dare I say it, large groups of women is never a good idea as they tend to fall out with each other. Ive seen this in my running club and the workplace. Things get very nasty - just like Celeb Big Brother last year.

[Tony]

[quote="Stu Merckx Man"]...... we always claim to be the best club in the country, compared to who exactly??? because we get the most people out on a saturday morning? sure thats a great thing, but that doesnt necessarily make us that fantastic, it does nothing for our reputation among other clubs, which is surely what actually counts? .... not our own opinions based on membership numbers.

[Maria David]

A few clarifications :

There's a woman called Sarah Davies who races for Norwood Paragon. I saw her at a few races last year. I am not sure who she is racing for this season though. Norwood Paragon has certainly had women road racers in the past. Annette Nielson raced for them and so did Allison Butler, Hannah Reynolds and Justin Hoy's wife (then known as Claire Parrington). They were all pretty strong racers but then they were taken on into the Evans racing team. Then for various reasons they stopped road racing about 3 years ago, and I haven't seen any women racing for them since, apart from Sarah.

Also clarification re the Surrey League women's team. This team couldn't have been made up of "London Dynamo women plus Lisa S" because the rules were that no more than 3 women from any one club could be part of a 6 woman team that was fielded. The Surrey League team fielded for each of the women's team series races had a varied line-up with women racing from all different clubs. Charlotte Blackman was the only person to feature in all of the team line-ups and Rebecca Curley featured alot too. Apart from those two no other London Dynamo woman racer did more than 3 races - just like most of us who raced in the Surrey League team.

London Dynamo riders have a history of having women road racers - I can remember some years ago Mel Williams and Rebecca Stubbs racing for them. The women get nurtured in Richmond Park during the Park rides. Go to Richmond Park at 8am on a Saturday morning and you will find them there doing a dedicated women's session. In fact, they have various strong male road racers who actually turn up specifically to help out and give racing/riding tips for the women.

If you look around, I don't think the number of women racing in the South East is as low as people are making out. My club, Dulwich Paragon had 5 women road racing last season. Also Twickenham have a women's team and there was Agiskoviner - and that's not counting the various juniors (coached by Brian Taylor) who are based in the London area.

There is always the old chestnut of how to get more women involved. In my opinion, it has to come from the woman herself in the first place, but I think the club also has a duty to show that it takes women's racing seriously and will put on initiatives to encourage racing activity.

[Michelle]

Paul H said

[quote]Dare I say it, large groups of women is never a good idea as they tend to fall out with each other.