Training on a Dailey Basis

[Paul H]

[url]http://www.abcc.co.uk/Articles/dailey1.html[/url]

[Robh]

[quote="Paul H"][url]http://www.abcc.co.uk/Articles/dailey1.html[/url]

[Robh]

Paul,

Whilst your on your search to share different views can you find me a study that supports high power, short intensity training for longer than 16 weeks please to back up the claims of long term development using this method of training?

Be great if you could as I took the time to answer your questions.

Thanks

Rob
Train Smarter, Not Harder

[quote]Keep up the good work Paul your doing a grand job.

[Robh]

I've never called it a FaCT forum..One of the philosophies of FaCT is to share ideas like yourself.

Took you long enough to post on here though if you've been doing it 20 years?

For posting ideas...so saying thanks that's all. Don't get paranoid.

Andrew quoted a 3 year study done on humans. You dismissed it!

Oh you mean the one on rats...not exactly cyclists is it? And you moan about Juerg comparing marathon runners to cyclists. Atleast they are the same species...

Don't need to search for Seb Coe...I will ask Juerg he worked with Seb

BTW it's FaCT not FACT.

The ball is in your corner now!

This is getting silly but I have time on my hands at the moment so here goes:

[quote]Oh you mean the one on rats...not exactly cyclists is it? And you moan about Juerg comparing marathon runners to cyclists. Atleast they are the same species...

[Robh]

Will find the study for you waiting for Andrew to get back to me.

Juerg is cool, he felt that you were suggesting that cycling is closer to a Rats( Dudley's athletes) than to a marathon runner because of your comments.

He also commented :-

Problems training Dudley's athletes (rats) as they don't follow Yvon's suggestion of the three brains.
a) reptilian
b) mammalian
c) human brain.
He believes that many specific training forms can be done by using c) and therefore can be of some very individual value. If you always only train with a) and perhaps with a and b) we may end up as some of Dudley's athletes.
PS most of them eventually ended up dead after the 8 weeks research.


MCT 4 proteins removal of lactate for FTF & MCT1 proteins removal for lactate in the STF . Now interesting is , that rats actually have different MCT than humans.

Hmm could that have something changed in the outcome in the study?


Studies that are published are to be challenged it's a well known fact...

[Robh]

From Herb :-

Not only was the study done on rats but the exercise the rats performed was running. Despite their best efforts the rats were not able to learn how to ride bikes.

In any case if you read Dudley's study more carefully you will see that the only conclusion was that Cytochrome C levels increased in rats. The inference made by Ownen Anderson that this is proof that mitochondria density would be increased in human athletes is a little absurd.



Like you say Paul marathon running is not the same as cycling. Not very clever those rats were there?

Hang on didn't Roland Rat ride a bike?

[Robh]

Your quote :-

"but it seems to me that he is talking about marathon runners which is a significantly different sport to road racing and you do not require any FT fibres"

Did Dudley rats need FT fibres for running?

[Paul H]

youve missed my point about the Rats and Marathon runners but I will leave it there.

Any comments on the training article? I notice this this guy is recomending endurance training at a significantly higher intensity than what you are recommending to the ACC riders you have tested. It is also similar to Mark Allen you mentioned.

Seb Coe was coached by his dad by the way.

[Robh]

Nice to keep it in the family and yes Juerg has worked with Seb btw.

FaCT don't believe in percentages...And here's why :-


Juerg randomly tested 4 clients I tested in the Nov/Dec 08 :-


Here the info .

Client A B C D

VO2 max 76 53 26 45

70 % of 53 37 18 31
VO2 max


MAP wattage 620 410 220 340


FaCT watts 410 360 140 260


VO2 64 41 10.4 27
on LBP

% of VO2
on LBP 85 79 40 27

Real Watt
over 1 h 350 260 60 180

% of real
watt to LBP 85 % 72 43 69


% of MAP
watt on LBP 56 % 53 26 45


Okay now your turn folks?

1. You base your intensity zones on max wattage but which wattage do you take . The MAP test wattage or the FaCT test wattage?

If you take the Map test wattage and 70 % of this would move you in an endurance training intensity. In Case A this would be 434 watts . As you see for a 1 hour TT he averaged 350 watts which is close to world class.

Hmm may have to rethink wattage as a way of intensity zoning?

If you take FaCT's wattage 70 % it would be 287 watts? Which he can do with no lactate in the system measurable for over 2 hours..

This is just case A .

Now lets take the other cases and check what the 70 % of VO2 as a research group would mean in the way of whicj intensity muscle fibers and energy sources these 4 cases would use. i.e 70 % of VO2 is it really the same for all 4?

Juerg believe that LBP intensity would be the same for all , as it indicates the trend from the end of clear oxygen dependent energy to a shift in some involvement of oxygen independent energy supply. That's why you guys have all different LBP's but are in the same physiological point.

Hmm he know what happens with all the thousands of PhD masters and research work everyones see daily based on % of VO2 max. But can you even be sure whether they reached VO2 max at all?

Hmm how valuable are this studies and what positives can you take from them.

Rob

[Robh]

This is for you PaulH Juerg is tracking down the 3 year study

Hey Rob .
I will go though my archive.

It is a study presented in German in the publication . " Leistungssport) with authors and co authors arround the study group Hollmann/Hettinger/ Liesen and Kindermann.

It was done with the a German Track and field group in the late 1980 and or beginning of the early 1990 just after works like Dudley and Holloszy rat training.

Andrew actually had another very recent study in Joshua Tree done by a Spanish group , who did some research on how runners in Spain would train without influencing their training , just collecting data and then published the % of LSD and harder workouts.

Polar did in connection with another group some interesting Wattage studies during a Tour de France and showed , how low the actual wattage average was over the whole tour in comparison to what the guys actually can push . Will find that study as well, but as I can recall they go around 50 % of the total wattage they can push in a ITT and this would end up by app. 50 % of classical VO2 which is what they need to do to be able to end the tour , as 50 % of VO2 is considered STF and fat metabolic stage. So the key to end is to be as many days as possible in STF to be able on teh specific days liek ITT or TTT or heavy duty alps stages to push the odd day above STF in to LBP and the odd day even above.

The person , who has to dig the smallest amount into this area has the best outcome to finish and to finish strong. Will search for this 3 studies, but Andrew may find the spanish study fast . I will check the other 2 original stduies.

Problem for Rob. The study is only as good as you read carefully . Remember the athletes in Dudley and Holloszy . What where they actually? Runners, Bikers or R..... ( no not for rowers )